Chimpanzee (and human) politics

Yascha Mounk with a fantastic interview with Frans de Waal.  So much good stuff in here:

Yascha Mounk: Why should we study primates to understand human society and human behavior? What is it that we can understand about ourselves by studying these cognate species?

Frans de Waal: We are primates. We are so close to some primates like chimpanzees and bonobos that there are even people who feel they need to be in the same genus, Homo. They’re very closely related. Socially and emotionally we are basically the same as the other primates. I don’t think there’s a huge difference in our emotional or social life, how we strive for success and how we value social relationships and so on. Cognitively, there’s just maybe a bit of a difference—some people exaggerate it and make it a huge difference. I think the differences are not so great. Yes, we have language for example. I consider that an important difference. But, overall, we are primates. Looking at the other primates, we learn a little bit about primate psychology, which is also our psychology. It places our psychology more in an evolutionary context than we’re used to. I think that’s fairly valuable.

The most common mistaken assumption is that if you look at the other primates, you see instinct. If I say for example that there’s political behavior in chimpanzees, people say, “Oh, that means it’s instinctive.” They think that in the other primates you see instinct, and if you look at humans, you see culture—more culture than biology. That’s a big mistake. Because if you look at the other primates, you also see culture. For example, a chimpanzee becomes an adult when they’re 16. They have a very slow development and they learn a lot before they are adults. We know that there’s a lot of cultural habits that they have. If you look at the other primates, you also see culture, and if you look at humans, you also see a lot of biology. I think that’s the biggest mistake, that people think that in animals things must be simple and instinctive. Nothing is simple, especially not in the great apes…

Yascha Mounk: Why should we study primates to understand human society and human behavior? What is it that we can understand about ourselves by studying these cognate species?

Frans de Waal: We are primates. We are so close to some primates like chimpanzees and bonobos that there are even people who feel they need to be in the same genus, Homo. They’re very closely related. Socially and emotionally we are basically the same as the other primates. I don’t think there’s a huge difference in our emotional or social life, how we strive for success and how we value social relationships and so on. Cognitively, there’s just maybe a bit of a difference—some people exaggerate it and make it a huge difference. I think the differences are not so great. Yes, we have language for example. I consider that an important difference. But, overall, we are primates. Looking at the other primates, we learn a little bit about primate psychology, which is also our psychology. It places our psychology more in an evolutionary context than we’re used to. I think that’s fairly valuable.

The most common mistaken assumption is that if you look at the other primates, you see instinct. If I say for example that there’s political behavior in chimpanzees, people say, “Oh, that means it’s instinctive.” They think that in the other primates you see instinct, and if you look at humans, you see culture—more culture than biology. That’s a big mistake. Because if you look at the other primates, you also see culture. For example, a chimpanzee becomes an adult when they’re 16. They have a very slow development and they learn a lot before they are adults. We know that there’s a lot of cultural habits that they have. If you look at the other primates, you also see culture, and if you look at humans, you also see a lot of biology. I think that’s the biggest mistake, that people think that in animals things must be simple and instinctive. Nothing is simple, especially not in the great apes. 

And plenty more good stuff, especially on gender.